Foreign players?!!

TheBillster · #1 (**permalink**) 05-01-2008

Okay, I think here it is time for some other kind of Soccer discussions...
For every real Soccer fan this discussion is fundamental and tells a lot about how you see Soccer.
So, what do you think of foreign players in your most favourite league (the elite foreign players and the average foreign players)? Are they good for the league or bad for the league? Are they good or bad for the national teams?

Should there be a restriction of foreign players in the starting line-up to lets say 5 players like it is sometimes discussed and demanded by the UEFA and some Countries?

UEFA Boss Michel Platini told a couple of times already about his big concerns for the national teams blaming for example the English and the Spanish League of having too many foreign players which is making the league more and more unattractive for fans cause they lack the national identification players and the own young players are stuck behind average players too often.
Is he right, or wrong? And if he is right, what should be done to make things look better again for the future?

I will tell you my opinions in the next couple of days. Now it is time to go to sleep

SilentTom · #2 (**permalink**) 05-02-2008

That's a good question, Billster. I can't really say how it effects me in particular as being Canadian we only really have one professional team (Toronto FC in the MLS) and I haven't really gotten into the MLS yet, with my attention focused overseas.

Personally, I don't think there should be restrictions on foreign players on football clubs. For one, if you put too many restrictions on it, it basically becomes international play to an extent. If a club feels that a lack of homegrown players is hurting the interest in them, then they should make an effort to get some of those local players. Regardless, Europeans love their soccer and from what I can tell watching EPL they are very passionate for their hometown clubs. I really can't see them more or less passionate dependant on how many foreign players they have on their side.

I can't say for sure, as I don't follow EPL THAT closely, but many teams have a fair share of national players already (Liverpool - Gerrard, Chelsea - Terry, Lampard among others just to name a few) that are quite popular. Yes, they have foreign players ... to form the best side they can and win trophies (helping in fan support).

titansrule · #3 (**permalink**) 05-02-2008

I dont think its actually a remote issue. Play the best players. Bring in the best players. Be the best team. That is all that matters. If a Domestic player deserves a spot on the team, ala Terry, Lampard, Ashley Cole, Joe Cole to name but a few on Chelsea, or Ferdinand, Brown, Hargreaves, Carrick, Rooney on Manchester United...Then give it to them. If they dont, dont. Its really that simple.

Now as far as it hurting the National Teams...BS. Sure England have sucked lately, but its not the quality of players, its the quality of the team play and manager...

As far as it turning people off the EPL...Again. BS. It would turn me off my team if we were playing average English players for the sake of it.

Now as for this "stuck behind average players" what are you suggesting? That good National players arent making the their teams because of average players ahead of them? Like who? If you are good enough, you play. You want an example of that? Wayne Rooney. Played for Everton at 16. If you are young and good enough, you can play.

Even if this did have a negative effect on National teams, which I dont believe it does, I would rather that than watch an average league, by miles.

TheBillster · #4 (**permalink**) 05-02-2008

First off, I don’t think that restrictions for foreign players would help or work in a proper way.
But things aren’t that simple with just saying ‘play the best guy’. Cause who says who is really the best guy? Of course, the Coach does. But for example the pressure of producing wins with his team is leading sometimes to decisions which are hardly to recapitulate for the average fan.
I could tell you countless names of young and promising players in Germany who never ever where able to play up to their potential cause they were benched too long mostly in benefit for more experienced older foreign players. And in Soccer psychology is very important. If you don’t give a young guy the feeling that he is good enough to play for some years in the end the player will think exactly the same and his career is over before it really begins. Nowadays Europe is in big panic because the talents were and are lacking and every young guy who can half ways walk without problems is thrown into the fire calles Soccer player career. And suddenly it looks like we have millions of young talents in Europe. But that isn’t true. Millions of talents in South America might be true, but not in Europe.
The coaching, training and schooling of young talents needs to get better in Europe. Then the entire continent will have much more skilled Soccer players and wont need that much input from other areas of the world. For example until 5-6 years ago coaches for kids in Germany thought that the most important asset to teach to the young folks playing Soccer would be strength and stamina. I am glad that changed now. But Europe still needs much better own Soccer players. Soccer is so popular in Europe, it needs more world-class players coming out if Europe.

One other story I want to mention here is about the German Bundesliga, which is the most popular Soccer league worldwide based on attendance to matches if I am not wrong. The average attendance is almost 50 thousands fans per match and is still on the raise since the new millennium. One of the reasons this happens is that the German clubs started again to build their teams more around German elite players with young Germans. This is a completely new dimension of loyalty and identification with the league clubs. The attendance had a jump from 20 thousands visitors to almost 50 thousands in about just 10 years. How was that possible? It was possible cause the teams of the Bundesliga realized that their supporters want authentic teams with authentic faces to which they can easily develop a feeling of identification. Really crazy. The league has trouble to keep up with the English, Spanish and Italian league in European competitions but the league is more popular then ever before. It is so popular because the people like the character of the league with an extremely high identification level.
Once I have heard a sentence from German coaching legend Otto Rehhagel who won EURO 2004 with Greece. He said that the best players in the world will always be adored. But they will never be loved. The people will love the players which they can identify themselves the most with. I really liked this statement of him.

For example here in Germany the respect for ManU is amazing. Clubs like Chelsea almost get no respect cause people don’t buy it that they are a real team. They appear like a bunch of individualists who were forced to play together.
ManU is a team that really is loved in Germany. It is an impressive story starting over 15 years ago I assume as Sir Alex Ferguson took over the not very popular club and made it a European elite team. Even I can remember some things of the early period where young guys like David Beckham, Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, Roy Keane, Phil and Gary Neville came up from nowhere and dominated the Premier League and Europe without problems. That is something people respect and love here. But if you say for example Chelsea everyone is saying ‘yeah Chelsky Gazprom is really cool’ and crap like that. They get no respect despite of winning some titles. But Soccer isnt just collecting titles...

Well, I think identification is really extremely important in sports and particularly in Soccer. It gets you respect. These are just some random thoughts around this topic. Maybe I will add some more later on.

titansrule · #5 (**permalink**) 05-03-2008

Well its ignorant to perceive Chelsea as a group of individuals. I do not know a team with more character. If there is one team you can count on to fight to the end, its them. Just thought I would correct your gross misunderstanding there.

Great the Bundesliga has the best attendance (closer to 40000 btw last I checked). But you know where it is total ratings? 5th. It goes EPL, Serie A, La Liga, The Championship, Bundesliga from my memory. Its behind our 2nd tier of football! Even I found that surprising. You know why that is? Because no-one wants to see average players battle it out, which your league is littered with. Your best team got battered by Zenit St Petersburg for example. Its a poor standard of play.

Anyway, this idea that you have to have players you can identify with is true. But it doesnt have to be a player of your own Nationality. For example, my favourite player for Chelsea is Michael Essien, because I like his bullish attitude, and general power play.

Now as far as who decides who the best player is...Its kind of obvious if you watch football. Sometimes there are Managerial biases though, which if the team lose, the Manager has to be held accountable for.

You preach about the German league and how it has all these German players, but then you say they are stuck behind average foreign players? Well I know here in England, if you are good enough and English, you can play, no matter your age. For example, Ashley Young, Gabriel Agbonlohor, Micah Richards and Michael Johnson are all young talents coming through for England, and as such, warrant starting places on their respective teams. And in the case of Richards and Young particularly, and to an extent Agbonlohor, they have been some of the best players in the Premiership, and one day could be world class..

Its not a case of Nationality, its a case of skill. Thats what I want to see.

TheBillster · #6 (**permalink**) 05-03-2008

I want to adress a little thing here since I am heading with my wife for dinner in a restaurant in a few mins.

I mentioned the German league only as an example how identification is working as a positive factor to attract people. I dont want to start a discussion about how good or bad some leagues are, cause we are all biased on that and a discussion wont lead to anywhere. I only want to throw that comment now in here to clearify some things:
The UEFA is always updating the rankings of the Soccer leagues and from 1st July 2008 on the German Bundesliga will be the No.4 behind The English Premier League and the Spanish Primera Division (which I assume is called 'La Liga' by you) and the Italian Serie A. Behind Germany is now the French elite league.

In my opinion the German Bundesliga is a great league and it only sets its preferences and priorities more differently compared to other leagues. Still it is a very competitive league. It even is winning big titles like the Champions league like Borussia Dortmund and Bayern München a few years ago.
I think the top teams of the German league Like München, Schalke 04, Werder Bremen, Hamburger SV and VFB Stuttgart would do a great job in the English Premier League. The first 3 named teams even would play for the league Championship or at least for UEFA Cup or Champions League qualification regularly.

Now I have to go. Maybe we can talk here over some Soccer related interesting things in the upcoming weeks.
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Madden 09 Madden 2009
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BTW, before I forget it. Your 2nd tier football comment was hilarious!!!

titansrule · #7 (**permalink**) 05-08-2008

Thats a laugh, Schalke and Werder would not even scrape top 5. Bayern would have a chance, but then again, losing so horrendously to Zenit would make me question that.

There is just no way any of your teams are the standard of Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal. No way. Bayern Munich are close, I would admit that, but challenge for the title? Nope.

I dont value what UEFA conclude very often, not least because its headed by the incompetent Platini...But even they have the Bundesliga 4th. You can say what you want about fan biasy or whatever, but there is no legitimate claim for the Bundesliga being better than the EPL...There are no legitimate claims for any league being better, as thats not the case, but at least with Spain they have glamour teams like Barca and Real, and Italy have the Inters, ACs and Romas...

You say you dont want to compare leagues, but then claim that your teams would do well in ours...Obviously not true, and in itself, a comparison...

TheBillster · #8 (**permalink**) 05-09-2008

*Gasps*.... There he is going again... Pls dont start something we dont want to have here. Pls, PLS, PLEAAASE...!!!!
And especially it makes no sense in disscussing something when both say the same. Re-read again what I say about the UEFA ranking of the Bundesliga... And then go and look for which team Miroslav Klose is playing for 1 year

You like your league and I like mine and everything is fine

Do you see how cool I am dealing with your 2nd tier or second string comment which was a joke ??
Once Winston Churchill said ' Do not beleive statistics you havent forged by your own'.
I really appreciate it when things are discussed in a proper way. You dont have to think my way and I dont have to think your way. Soccer is like life. Everything is possible...

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Madden 09 Madden 2009
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I now think yesterday I maybe wasn’t clear enough or even forgot it completely to say that direct league comparisons aren’t a good idea because they can’t be 100% correct for multiple reasons (lack of knowledge about a league or to be biased and so on).
And it is a difference to say ‘My league owns your league’ or ‘My league is tons better than yours’ or to say that some good teams of a certain league might look not bad, or even pretty good in other leagues.
But in the end every league has its own character and is fascinating and very likeable in its own way.

titansrule · #9 (**permalink**) 05-10-2008

Billster, you were comparing how your teams would do in our league. I wasnt starting something, you were saying lets not but doing so yourself. So I continued...

You are right, they cant be 100% correct - comparisons that is. But they can be pretty damn accurate.

You were asking the effect of Foreign Players on teams, I am saying, its a brilliant effect, because of the standard of the football as a result. You used your league as an example of one that is working because it has a lot of National players...I am saying, thats great, but its sacrificing standard in order to do that. And personally, as a fan of football, I want a high standard, and dont care for the race of those who are producing it..

gregice · #10 (**permalink**) 10-16-2008

going back towards the threads beginning, i believe that foreign players in leagues shouldn't hurt them because in a sense the teams may get support from overseas because of it. (here comes the possibly bias bit due to lack of knowledge elsewhere)
at ManU Ji Sung Park coming to us partially increased our support in Korea (north/south cant remember :S)
and also where we should develop our youngsters is a good point, we do but its not the lack of youngsters in my opinion its more the lack of academies that are big enough to help english talent.
Watford have quite a good academy at the moment after combining with Harefield and have alot coming through
(Ashley Young currently)