Isreal... Was given land by...

[Tigam]

The UN. Basically the world made a decision. Now it's up to the world to either stick with a that decision, or come up with a new one.

Not the US unilaterally

The UN. Which the US is apart of. Any disagreements? Because I really want people to see what the UN is. Which is NOT something of the sum of it's parts. It's actually something less than any one of it's members.

[cashpath]

Well, In the beginning (Meaning the beginning of the time the US was around as any sort of power..) it was britain and france that controlled that region.. then britain basically did it all... they controlled and made rules on how many Jews could 'Imigrate' back into a land that they were run out of over the 1900 previous years to begin with.

After WW2 the US became partially involved because we were part of the UN.. but I would say 99% of the responsibility for giving land back to people whom it was stolen from in the first place should go on Britain.

[TheBillster]

Finally...

Yep, was the UN under the leaderchip of its big influence members like Britain, France, US, Russia and even Germany.

That is all i said, the UN and its powerful nations caused this mess, now it is up to them to fix the problem. Almost nothing was done in 60 years since the late 1940's to come to an acceptable solution for all parties of the conflict. That is really poor.

And after knowing all the backgroud of the story, now tell the Palestine folks that the UN and the western world cares for them and wants to help them... The Palestine folks was let alone in a fight against powerful Israel and feel like this about the UN and western world:

But again, exactly scenerios like this is getting the islamic terrorists their support. People feel alone in conflicts and not supported or protected by the western world. Then they start to see the western world not as a help or a reliable friend, they see them as another enemy.
Like i said, if you want a better world, you need to get a juster world. For all parties, for all groups of human beings...

Later more...

[cashpath]

WTF are you talking about Billster the Palestine folks ran the Israely people out of the area first... The land was taken from them by force starting 2000 years ago.. It's not like they just left and said "We don't like it here anymore"...

Isreal is taking back what was thiers 2000 years ago and was taken from them...

And as I said before ... if you want to forget history then lets do that and just start today... and today, Isreal is there and they are being terrorized.. You decide.. you want to include history or forget it? You can't only include the part of it you want to.... Include it all or forget it all.. either way Israel is right...

[Tigam]

Originally Posted by TheBillster

Like i said, if you want a better world, you need to get a juster world. For all parties, for all groups of human beings...

Later more...

I'm listening.

[TheBillster]

Originally Posted by cashpath

WTF are you talking about Billster the Palestine folks ran the Israely people out of the area first... The land was taken from them by force starting 2000 years ago.. It's not like they just left and said "We don't like it here anymore"...

Isreal is taking back what was thiers 2000 years ago and was taken from them...

And as I said before ... if you want to forget history then lets do that and just start today... and today, Isreal is there and they are being terrorized.. You decide.. you want to include history or forget it? You can't only include the part of it you want to.... Include it all or forget it all.. either way Israel is right...

Ok, one question



Your speaking of Palestinians.... They are muslims....

Isrealiansd left their territory 2000 years ago.... The muslim religion was founded 1500 years ago, after the Isrealis left.... So, the guys which forced the Jews to leave their land cant be this Palestine folks, cause they are muslims that emigrated during the last 1000 years to the left Jew territories out of Arabia.

Dont blame the Palestine folks for things they havent done. As they reached their new home lands, there wasnt much left of the jewish religion and culture already...

Iam listening.........

Dont mix up this historic folks of the Philisitians or however they were called with the arabic folks of the Palestine out of Arabia which arrived in former jewish territories 1000 years after the Jews left them.

And this is not changing my mind, the UN has to solve a self-made problem. There is still a problem and it has to be solved if the world should really get safer and better...
--------------- Madden 2007 Next Gen football ---------

Originally Posted by TheBillster

Isrealians left their territory 2000 years ago.... The muslim religion was founded 1500 years ago, after the Isrealis left.... So, the guys which forced the Jews to leave their land cant be this Palestine folks, cause they are muslims that emigrated during the last 1000 years to the left Jew territories out of Arabia.

Meaning the muslium religion was founded 1500 years ago and not 1500 years after the Jews left their territories.
--------------- Madden 2007 Next Gen football ---------
PALESTINE is the historic name of the region..........

[Tigam]

I was under the impression that they were forced out... They didn't exactly leave.

[cashpath]

Yeah Billster you keep saying LEFT... That's not what happened.. they didn't pack up and say "I'm outa here this place is too hot"... They were forced out... after living there for a LONG LONG time..

And then you are saying "As they reached their new home lands"

Like they just moved in and said "Wow look at this place it is empty and looks like a nice place to live..." Sorry buddy it didin't work like that...

The archeological record indicates that the Jewish people evolved out of native Cana'anite peoples and invading tribes.

According to the Bible, Moses led the Israelites, or a portion of them, out of Egypt. Under Joshua, they conquered the tribes and city states of Canaan. Based on biblical traditions, it is estimated that king David conquered Jerusalem about 1000 B.C. and established an Israelite kingdom over much of Canaan including parts of Transjordan. The kingdom was divided into Judea in the south and Israel in the north following the death of David's son, Solomon. Jerusalem remained the center of Jewish sovereignty and of Jewish worship whenever the Jews exercised sovereignty over the country in the subsequent period, up to the Jewish revolt in 133 AD.

Roman rulers put down Jewish revolts in about A.D. 70 and A.D. 132. In A.D. 135, the Romans drove the Jews out of Jerusalem.

However, Jewish communities continued to exist in Galilee, the northernmost part of Palestine. Palestine was governed by the Roman Empire until the fourth century A.D. (300's) and then by the Byzantine Empire.

During the seventh century (A.D. 600's), Muslim Arab armies moved north from Arabia to conquer most of the Middle East, including Palestine. Jerusalem was conquered about 638 by the Caliph Umar (Omar) who gave his protection to its inhabitants. Muslim powers controlled the region until the early 1900's. The rulers allowed Christians and Jews to keep their religions. However, most of the local population gradually accepted Islam and the Arab-Islamic culture of their rulers. Jerusalem became holy to Muslims as the site where, according to tradition, Muhammed ascended to heaven after a miraculous overnight ride on his horse Al-Buraq. The al-Aqsa mosque was built on the site generally regarded as the area of the Jewish temples.

The Seljuk Turks conquered Jerusalem in 1071, but their rule in Palestine lasted less than 30 years. Initially they were replaced by the Fatimid rulers of Egypt. The Fatimids took advantage of the Seljuk struggles with the Christian crusaders. They made an alliance with the crusaders in 1098 and captured Jerusalem, Jaffa and other parts of Palestine.

The Crusaders, however, broke the alliance and invaded Palestine about a year later. They captured Jaffa and Jerusalem in 1099, slaughtered many Jewish and Muslim defenders and forbade Jews to live in Jerusalem. They held the city until 1187. In that year, the Muslim ruler Saladin conquered Jerusalem. The Crusaders then held a smaller and smaller area along the coast of Palestine, under treaty with Saladin. However, they broke the treaty with Saladin and later treaties. Crusade after crusade tried unsuccessfully to recapture Jerusalem.

The crusaders left Palestine for good when the Muslims captured Acre in 1291. During the post-crusade period, crusaders often raided the coast of Palestine. To deny the crusaders gains from these raids, the Muslims pulled their people back from the coasts and destroyed coastal towns and farms. This depopulated and impoverished the coast of Palestine for hundreds of years.

In the mid-1200's, Mamelukes, originally soldier-slaves of the Arabs based in Egypt, established an empire that in time included the area of Palestine. Arab-speaking Muslims made up most of Palestine's population. Beginning in the late 1300's, Jews from Spain and other Mediterranean lands settled in Jerusalem and other parts of the land. The Ottoman Empire defeated the Mamelukes in 1517, and Palestine became part of the Ottoman Empire. The Turkish Sultan invited Jews fleeing the Spanish Catholic inquisition to settle in the Turkish empire, including several cities in Palestine.

In 1798, Napoleon entered the land. The war with Napoleon and subsequent misadministration by Egyptian and Ottoman rulers, reduced the population of Palestine. Arabs and Jews fled to safer and more prosperous lands. Revolts by Palestinian Arabs against Egyptian and Ottoman rule at this time may have helped to catalyze Palestinian national feeling. Subsequent reorganization and opening of the Turkish Empire to foreigners restored some order. They also allowed the beginnings of Jewish settlement under various Zionist and proto-Zionist movements

Jews had never stopped coming BACK to "the Holy land" or Palestine in small numbers throughout the exile. Palestine also remained the center of Jewish worship and a part of Jewish culture. However, the Jewish connection with the land was mostly abstract and connected with dreams of messianic redemption.

So they were run out of thier land by the Roman empire... Then the Byzantines took it... Than the Muslim Arabs decided it looked good and took it... Then some arabs fought some arabs for it.. then Turkish RULE took it in 1517 and INVITED the Jews to move back in to a land that was thiers for a long time..

Then Napoleon AND france came along...

During the siege of Acre in 1799, Napoleon prepared a proclamation declaring a Jewish state in Palestine, though he did not issue it. The siege was lost to the British, however, and the plan was never carried out.

France was going to LIBERATE Palestine again and give it BACK.. but they lost to the British.. and actually the area became an Area of both british and france rule both countries then over the next 200 years allowed the Jews to Imigrate BACK INTO a land that was orgininally thiers...




NOW... correct any of that which is wrong...

AND.. to say that you cannot blame the Palestine people who live there now for what happened 100's 1000's of years ago is fine... But then you can't blame the Israel people who live there now for what has happened over the last 200...



Who was there first??? Oh.. and there is a reason the US likes some countries and dislikes others... WTF would we help a bunch of ANTI-US people when we could help people who are PRO-US? The way I see it both the Israel people and the Palestine people have interest in the land.. they have both lived there.. and they don't get along...

Of course we (The US) is going to back the people who are our friends.. WTF would we back people who are against us?

If your friend got into a fight with someone who openly hated you, and your friend had some merritt to stand on in that fight meaning that he wasn't completely wrong... wouldn't you back your friend? I think so.. Sure you might say "break it up" but if your friend said "NO" what would you do help the guy that hates you to kick your frineds A$$... No.. I don't think so..

[TheBillster]

First of all, thanks for the work. This was really nice. Let me comment some passages.

During the seventh century (A.D. 600's), Muslim Arab armies moved north from Arabia to conquer most of the Middle East, including Palestine. Jerusalem was conquered about 638 by the Caliph Umar (Omar) who gave his protection to its inhabitants. Muslim powers controlled the region until the early 1900's. The rulers allowed Christians and Jews to keep their religions. However, most of the local population gradually accepted Islam and the Arab-Islamic culture of their rulers. Jerusalem became holy to Muslims as the site where, according to tradition, Muhammed ascended to heaven after a miraculous overnight ride on his horse Al-Buraq. The al-Aqsa mosque was built on the site generally regarded as the area of the Jewish temples.

Aha, so the 'bad muslims' werent bad to the Jews and Christians after conquering the land. Just wanted to point it out, cause it was still a time where human lifes didnt count for much and brutality by rulers was a legitimate way of 'ruling'... Iam not sure if everybody knows that.

And to make this aspect complete, here the next thing about who was bad and who was good:

The Seljuk Turks conquered Jerusalem in 1071, but their rule in Palestine lasted less than 30 years. Initially they were replaced by the Fatimid rulers of Egypt. The Fatimids took advantage of the Seljuk struggles with the Christian crusaders. They made an alliance with the crusaders in 1098 and captured Jerusalem, Jaffa and other parts of Palestine.

The Crusaders, however, broke the alliance and invaded Palestine about a year later. They captured Jaffa and Jerusalem in 1099, slaughtered many Jewish and Muslim defenders and forbade Jews to live in Jerusalem. They held the city until 1187. In that year, the Muslim ruler Saladin conquered Jerusalem. The Crusaders then held a smaller and smaller area along the coast of Palestine, under treaty with Saladin. However, they broke the treaty with Saladin and later treaties. Crusade after crusade tried unsuccessfully to recapture Jerusalem.

So, it wasnt the muslim side breaking treatys... Especially not the legendary honorable muslim ruler Saladin who was a great friend of the human beings no matter of their origin... Dunno if everybody knows about him around here, Great man... And, a text-book muslim. Good muslims have to respect human beings, no matter where they are from or what there religion is. To compare it, Osama is NOT a good muslim.


And,

In the mid-1200's, Mamelukes, originally soldier-slaves of the Arabs based in Egypt, established an empire that in time included the area of Palestine. Arab-speaking Muslims made up most of Palestine's population. Beginning in the late 1300's, Jews from Spain and other Mediterranean lands settled in Jerusalem and other parts of the land. The Ottoman Empire defeated the Mamelukes in 1517, and Palestine became part of the Ottoman Empire. The Turkish Sultan invited Jews fleeing the Spanish Catholic inquisition to settle in the Turkish empire, including several cities in Palestine.

Hear, hear...The 'bad muslims' helped Jews which wanted to escape from the Christians and invited them and even allowed them to settle down and find a new home in a muslim empire. Jews fleeing from Christians and getting help from Muslims... Isnt that strange?? Who knows about that incident around the members here?

Who was there first??? Oh.. and there is a reason the US likes some countries and dislikes others... WTF would we help a bunch of ANTI-US people when we could help people who are PRO-US? The way I see it both the Israel people and the Palestine people have interest in the land.. they have both lived there.. and they don't get along...

I dont think that 'who was first there" is the important matter here. I only say that it is a fact that both nations can get a peaceful relationchip to each other for centuries now, especially not in the last 60 years. That is simply a fact. Both parties cant get the job done and reach an acceptable agreement for both. I say, this senseless conflict has to stop. If they cant get the job done to finish their war, the ''world' UN or whoever has to find a solution. And this has to be a balanced and fair solution for both parties. That is all iam saying. Both nations have the right of existance. Both nations have the right of beeing in this place they are living. BOTH!!

Of course we (The US) is going to back the people who are our friends.. WTF would we back people who are against us?

Cause it would be a sign that the US is in a war against terror, not in a war against muslims...

But, iam speaking more of the UN, they have to do something to stop senseless violence and suffering of people of both nations.

If your friend got into a fight with someone who openly hated you, and your friend had some merritt to stand on in that fight meaning that he wasn't completely wrong... wouldn't you back your friend? I think so.. Sure you might say "break it up" but if your friend said "NO" what would you do help the guy that hates you to kick your frineds A$$... No.. I don't think so..

I would try to find a good solution for the conflict and to prevent senseless use of violence. My friend will like it that i kept him from a fight where he could suffer badly things... and, who knows, maybe the other guy would stop hating me after seeing that iam also interested in stopping him of continuing a senseless fight and maybe get hurt or suffer some other things... Who knows....



I really think it is time to find solutions to stop this conflict, dont you think?
--------------- Madden 2007 Next Gen football ---------
Can a Mod pls take out the last passage of my post starting with this:


So they were run out of thier land by the Roman empire... Then the Byzantines took it... Than the Muslim Arabs decided it looked good and took it... Then some arabs fought some arabs for it.. then Turkish RULE took it in 1517 and INVITED the Jews to move back in to a land that was thiers for a long time..

Till my last quote of Cash?

[SlickRick1382]

and what happens when both your friend and you enemy continuously refuse your cries for peace?

What do you do then...

Then your enemy is beating up you friend.... are you going to just walk away because they didn't listen?