Supporting the Troops vs. Disagreeing with the War

[ripperjd]

So, opening up this forum is like offering me a license to carry a concealed rocket launcher. I’m liable to hurt myself.

I’ve decided to pose this question here, as we obviously have current (I think still… maybe?) and ex-military guys on the board and I really do want to hear their thoughts on this. This is not to say that I don’t want to hear from other members as well, as everyone will have some valuable input into this, but I only know a few people currently in the military and they are of the same mind as I.

Let me start by saying, I love my country. I have nothing but hope for the safety of our troops all over the world. This is the very reason why I question the actions of our government. It is not to undermine the efforts of our brave solders, nor to send a message that I do not believe in them. My questioning is a sign that I care enough to be sure that they are dieing for a just cause.
With that said, why are we in Iraq? Why did we go, and why are we still there? I tell you what, I’ll give the opposition a head start, and leave the WMDs out of it. Bush said it is a war on terror.

"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him." - George W. Bush, White House Press Conference, November 13th, 2001.

I’m pretty sure Osama isn’t in Iraq. I’m not an expert, nor do I have any military intelligence but from what I understand, that’s the last place he would be. It may seem weak, but I watch PBS, listen to NPR, and study as much as I can any other resourses that are available to me as an average joe.

"So I don't know where he is. You know, I just don't spend that much time on him, Kelly, to be honest with you.”
“again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him.” - George W Bush, White House Press Conference March 13th, 2002.

So, in a matter of 4 months, we just decided that the most wanted man ever to cross our country doesn’t really matter? That’s a big part of what I don’t get. I know/hope we still have forces hunting him, but what I don’t get is why we lost sight of that as our priority? I think that if we had taken half the money and resources we put into the Iraq war and concentrated it on him, we’d have him by now. Heck… we would have had him years ago!

So, I don’t want to go too much further with this, as I’m sure I’ve already offended some. The thing about this is that I don’t want my views of our government’s actions to be viewed as some Vietnam style turning on the troops. Some people think that if I disagree with the war, I’m against the troops. I think that there is a difference between the two. I’m not calling out the troops for their actions, as they are doing their duty. I don’t question them. I question those who command them. Some say that in doing so, I trivialize what they are fighting for. I understand that argument. That’s why I’ve held back many times from these kinds of posts. But, I really do feel that my questions about why they are there does more to honor them in that I care enough to be sure in my own mind why we are there and why many of them have been lost.

What do you think?

[Tigam]

Originally Posted by ripperjd

[font="Arial"]So, opening up this forum is like offering me a license to carry a concealed rocket launcher. I’m liable to hurt myself.

Hey... Nothing wrong with that. If someone doesn't put themselves out there to be heard and make a statement... Doesn't matter if they are wrong or right. If there is no chance of being 'wrong' then this forum is all about personal ego for that person. That person likely won't like me much.

What do you think?

I think it's nice that a thread was started and it wasn't by me.

I decided to pose this question here, as we obviously have current (I think still… maybe?) and ex-military guys on the board and I really do want to hear their thoughts on this. This is not to say that I don’t want to hear from other members as well, as everyone will have some valuable input into this, but I only know a few people currently in the military and they are of the same mind as I.

Well... I doubt you get Cash's opinion. In all honesty I hope you don't. He's just as passionate about things as I am, moreso in this case I'm sure.

Why did we go, and why are we still there? I tell you what, I’ll give the opposition a head start, and leave the WMDs out of it. Bush said it is a war on terror.

I really don't care what Bush said it was. I supported the war to remove Saddam from office. WMD's be damned.

"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him." - George W. Bush, White House Press Conference, November 13th, 2001.

Yeah...

"So I don't know where he is. You know, I just don't spend that much time on him, Kelly, to be honest with you.”
“again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him.” - George W Bush, White House Press Conference March 13th, 2002.

Telling a guy who wants you to hate him, to think he's the greatest threat since yogi bear to picnic baskets that you don't care about him is a sure fire way to get him to stick his head out. My opinion... Not sure Bush is smart enough to figure that out however, so it's likely more to do with just plain old politics and not remembering what he said before.

I don’t question them. I question those who command them. Some say that in doing so, I trivialize what they are fighting for. I understand that argument. That’s why I’ve held back many times from these kinds of posts. But, I really do feel that my questions about why they are there does more to honor them in that I care enough to be sure in my own mind why we are there and why many of them have been lost.

I think it's not only your right to question, I think it's also something spoon fed people actually don't *try* to do. I hate media whores. <shrugs>

So in short, I think you are wrong... I believe the war was something needed to be done, but don't blame you for your feelings either as I share some of them.

[TheBillster]

Ok, this topic is good.
Maybe some of you can tell an european guy why to hell the US is in Iraq.
Almost nobody or at least the mayority of the peple in Europe isnt understanding this war in Iraq. Is there another real reason for it?? We are very worried about the goings in Iraq and almost everyone has realized now that the way the US government has chosen to fight the terror or Saddam or whoever wasnt right. You now that Iraq is much closer to Europe than to America, so that is another sorrow. To have an out of control country in the neighboorhood isnt a great feeling.
And please, this fight against terror is blabla if you speak of Iraq. Their dictator Saddam wasnt a friend of the terrorists, he never was. He hasnt supported terror against the US. And the political, military, economic situation , the living standard and many more other things are now much, much more worse than before the war. The iraqi civils are awaken now and see that everything turned to the bad. America is losing his support of the iraqi civils more and more and the entire situation is escalating slowly.

Originally Posted by ripperjd

With that said, why are we in Iraq?

Good question....

Why did we go, and why are we still there?

Bush said "fight against terror" (which i think wasnt the reason)
And now they are still there cause the country Iraq is out of control and the situation is escalating and nearing a civil war. If the US troops leave Iraq will go down in an incredible puddle of blood.

I’m pretty sure Osama isn’t in Iraq. I’m not an expert, nor do I have any military intelligence but from what I understand, that’s the last place he would be. It may seem weak, but I watch PBS, listen to NPR, and study as much as I can any other resourses that are available to me as an average joe.

Of course Osama isnt in Iraq. Saddam was never a friend of Osama. The terrorist boss would be crazy to be in Iraq. Osama is a Sunnit moslem and the Kurds and Schiit moslems dont like him and dont support him. He would have been caught in a few days if he had been there.

So, in a matter of 4 months, we just decided that the most wanted man ever to cross our country doesn’t really matter? That’s a big part of what I don’t get. I know/hope we still have forces hunting him, but what I don’t get is why we lost sight of that as our priority? I think that if we had taken half the money and resources we put into the Iraq war and concentrated it on him, we’d have him by now. Heck… we would have had him years ago!

So, I don’t want to go too much further with this, as I’m sure I’ve already offended some. The thing about this is that I don’t want my views of our government’s actions to be viewed as some Vietnam style turning on the troops. Some people think that if I disagree with the war, I’m against the troops. I think that there is a difference between the two. I’m not calling out the troops for their actions, as they are doing their duty. I don’t question them. I question those who command them. Some say that in doing so, I trivialize what they are fighting for. I understand that argument. That’s why I’ve held back many times from these kinds of posts. But, I really do feel that my questions about why they are there does more to honor them in that I care enough to be sure in my own mind why we are there and why many of them have been lost.

What do you think?

Very good point of view, i totally agree. The mayority of Europe (me too)thinks the war was wrong and that the US went there because of OIL!!! But now they are trapped in Iraq and cant quit the country without losing their face. I say nothing against the soldiers, it is not their fault. I say that the US government wasnt 100% sure about the effects of their doings and destroyed an established country.
I even agree that Saddam was an ***, but the way he was moved from the leaderchip of his country want right. The price the Iraqis had to pay for the american fight against the terror is far too high. Iraq is back at middle ages and the humans are suffering badly there. No, the way the US government wants to fight the terror isnt right...

[Tigam]

Iraq was out of the middle ages? Hell, I think the middle ages were better to woman than the general populous of Iraq right now. <shrugs>

Either way Billster... Do you think Saddam should have stayed in office? Any clue of what he did to people? Because I'm thinking if you don't like a neighbor that is out of control, you'd think that the country that is worried about it might help out.

[TheBillster]

Originally Posted by Tigam

Iraq was out of the middle ages? Hell, I think the middle ages were better to woman than the general populous of Iraq right now. <shrugs>

I completely disagree here. First, Iraq has Oil and was a rich country. The people had work and the living standards and the economy were really not bad for an arabic country.
And, Iraq isnt Iran where the women are suppressed. In Iraq they were much more integrated in regular life than some might think. Iraq was definitely not a poor country. It was out of middle ages but yet hadnt arrived in the modern times. It was modern in many aspects, but also very lagging in some others.

Either way Billster... Do you think Saddam should have stayed in office? Any clue of what he did to people? Because I'm thinking if you don't like a neighbor that is out of control, you'd think that the country that is worried about it might help out.

Saddam was a bad person, i dont like him. He is a slaughter and did a lot of bad things. I know a lot of things he did. The media told years ago about the toxic gas use against his own people. He was a dictator and he was cruel.
Iraq has 3 groups of people. The Kurds in the north, the Sunnit muslims in the middle (which supported Saddam) and the Schiit muslims in the south. The group 1 and 3 were against Saddam and welcomed the US troops. But as they saw now that everything is turning to the bad they are also slowly moving their positions away from supporting the US. These 3 groups are prepared for a brutal and fierce civil war. Experts say with his brutality Saddam was the key of keeping this country together. Without him everyone of these 3 groups wants to be the dominating part in Iraq.
Maybe it is a similar situation like former Yugloslawia, were the brutal etnical war started after the communist system broke down.

However, The fact is, that the situation right now is much more worse than the situation in Saddams time. To get rid of him was probably the right decision, but the way the US made it wasnt. Iam have the feeling the US goverment had no clue what to do after dethroning Saddam. And they didnt expected the different ethnics no fight each other so brutally.
Europe never saw the Iraq as a real danger, they knew that their dictator was an Slaughter, but wanted to solve the problems by diplomacy. Europe was told by the US government that Iraq was a friend of Osama and that war is the only solution. They were dumb enough not to ask for the proofs of the support of terror. Europe had to be more active in the Iraq issue. Hopefully they will be from now on. Iraq and its citizens need peace, not war. Something has to be done.

[Chaos6]

Originally Posted by Ripper

Let me start by saying, I love my country. I have nothing but hope for the safety of our troops all over the world. This is the very reason why I question the actions of our government. It is not to undermine the efforts of our brave solders, nor to send a message that I do not believe in them. My questioning is a sign that I care enough to be sure that they are dieing for a just cause.

OK, let me explain something as a Marine Grunt to all those who want to claim that they are questioning the Government and they still "support the troops" and don't want to see them dieing for no reason.

Pay attention and let it sink in before you reply.

Every sing man or woman in the Armed Forces today signed up of their own free will, they were not drafted, they were not forced in any way to become a member. They knew with out a doubt, that by signing up they could be sent to war and die for their country even if they don't agree with the reason for the war. They knew that and still signed because they were willing to do so. They felt strongly enough about their country and what it stands for that they were willing to sign up.

So when you question the war, and you claim that you are only questioning the Government and that you still support the troops... Its a bunch of BS. What most of those troops think when they hear people say that is... "That guy doesn't understand that I am doing this because I want to, I signed up for this, to serve my country, and that guy doesn't support what I am doing over here. Yeah he says he supports us troops but he doesn't agree with the war, which means he doesn't appreciate what I am doing over here. Eff Him"

I SIGNED ON THE DOTTED LINE HOPING THAT I WOULD GET TO GO TO WAR AND EARN MY FREEDOM INSTEAD OF LETTING OTHER SPILL THEIR BLOOD FOR ME.

Originally Posted by Ripper

With that said, why are we in Iraq? Why did we go, and why are we still there? I tell you what, I’ll give the opposition a head start, and leave the WMDs out of it. Bush said it is a war on terror.

Originally Posted by Billster

Maybe some of you can tell an european guy why to hell the US is in Iraq.

Mr. Bush told the people what they wanted to hear. Thats what politics is. If you don't know that then you don't even belong having a discussion about topics like this.

We are over there because we effed up the first time around and let Saddam stay in Iraq. So we are fixing it. Just imagine all the lives that could have been saved if the US would have taken down Hitler before he decided to do something stupid like take over the world. And he would have done it too if it wasn't for the United States of America.

But then you would have had a bunch of people crying about how we didn't have any right to be there too. And how we destroyed Germany and its people are suffering. But you know what, after the War, people in Germany suffered just like the people in Iraq are doing now, probably more so. And guess what else, we stayed in Germany after the war in a similar role to what we are doing in Iraq. Damn we are still in Germany TODAY. Don't hear anyone crying about that.

Originally Posted by Billster

The mayority of Europe (me too)thinks the war was wrong and that the US went there because of OIL!!!

WTF? You mean the US has all of Iraq's oil now? Then why the hell am I paying damn near $3 a freaking gallon? Someone please explain it to me! If we went to Iraq to take their oil, then why are gas prices so high in the US? I'm so sick of hearing that crap spew from peoples mouths.

Originally Posted by Billster

However, The fact is, that the situation right now is much more worse than the situation in Saddams time. To get rid of him was probably the right decision, but the way the US made it wasn't. I have the feeling the US Government had no clue what to do after dethroning Saddam. And they didn't expected the different ethnics to fight each other so brutally.

Thats a fact huh? You been to Iraq? You were there to see what Saddam did to people? You been there now to see all this "suffering" you claim is happening now? Or are you just believing what the Anti-American media is feeding you?

I'm sure that the US Government knew damn well what would happen after the war, its the people who didn't know. And I am sure the US Government knows exactly what will happen if we pull out, its the people who don't know.

What irritates me is that all these Anti-War/Anti-American hippys and foreigners want to preach about all the suffering and blah blah. They don't ever mention the fact that the US went and still is going to extreme lengths and measures to protect the civilians and civilian structures and property in Iraq, even though to do so puts US troops in more danger.

Now if I were over there that would piss me off, damn it pisses me off and I'm not over there. The fact that those troops are fighting a war with rules and tactics that have never been used before, that put their lives at more of a risk, simply to minimize damage. And then to hear people back home disagreeing with what they are spilling their blood for!

Blah

[Tigam]

Billster... All I'm going to say is a civil war likely isn't a bad thing. It happened in the US. I think the world in general is better off for it.

And, Iraq isnt Iran where the women are suppressed.

Can you find some source to promote that? Hey, I could be incorrect, and damnit if I am... But I'd like to know so I don't keep being incorrect. I have a sister who was over there ( Middle east ) and a brother-in-law that is in Iraq right now. They disagree.

[TheBillster]

Originally Posted by Chaos6

Mr. Bush told the people what they wanted to hear. Thats what politics is. If you don't know that then you don't even belong having a discussion about topics like this.

There it starts already. Right from the start you can see that the US government has troubles to find a justification for finishing Iraq. As far i remember the FIRST reason Bush have the media for declaring war to Iraq was that he was absolutely sure that they have nuclear or as least mass destruction weapons. He said that the iraqi regime would not hesitate to use this dangerous weapons against the western world and that the US will find these weapons and punish the bad Saddam. But what happened then? After the US troops invaded Iraq and the experts searched all over the country for these dangerous weapons the entire world found out that Iraq hadnt anything that could be called a mass destruction weapon or something like that. Soi this reason of Bush for fighting Iraq was a wrong information form the secret service, or even a plea. In the investiagtions about the quality of the inforamtions of the US secret service they had to confess that they gave the US government wrong, old or unprecise informations.

We are over there because we effed up the first time around and let Saddam stay in Iraq. So we are fixing it. Just imagine all the lives that could have been saved if the US would have taken down Hitler before he decided to do something stupid like take over the world. And he would have done it too if it wasn't for the States.

So the US are the world police or what. Will the USA declare war to every nation or leader in the world who is a problem in there eyes?
Then please explain to me this. There is one special guy living on an island near of America and he is showing you all his middle fingers and butt all the time. He is a communist and very likely involved in illegal activites in a big stlye. He is a dictator who is mercyless to his own folks and during his regime thousands of people were executed or prisoned or threated very bad in different ways. So, if the USA want to change the world and want to get rid of the bad leaders of the world and make the world better, why arent they declaring war to a little country called C-U-B-A!!!! Is this guy really better than Saddam?? Is Cuba to close to the USA to declare war and to crush him like a little ant?

And, you cant compare Saddam with Hitler. Hitler was a mad person, he was incredibly bad in his hearth filled with hate against all non-german groups. In his regime of terror over 20 million persons were killed during World War II. Saddam is a bad person too, but there were really no signs of him beeing the next Hitler of the world. As i described before, Iraq event wasnt able to defend their own Country against the US troops and had to surrender in a very short period of time. They hadnt the weapons to fight, they really had no mass destruction weapons. Iraq wasnt the big danger the US saw in them. So declaring war on them was wrong, it was an overreaction.

One last thing, Europe learned from World War II. They learned that war is never a good solution. The big thing that is said against the US in the Iraq issue is, that they went right from the start for a war and dont checked out diplomatic ways. What kind of politics is that when you say that war is the only solution and diplomacy is a waste of time?

But then you would have had a bunch of people crying about how we didn't have any right to be there too. And how we destroyed Germany and its people are suffering. But you know what, after the War, people in Germany suffered just like the people in Iraq are doing now, probably more so. And guess what else, we stayed in Germany after the war in a similar role to what we are doing in Iraq. Damn we are still in Germany

The big difference is, that the Germans wanted a fresh start, the USA was welcome to help and is still welcome. In Iraq they were welcomed only by some parts (at the beginning big parts) of the people, but now the situation is changing dramatically. Thats a big difference to Germany. The Germans wanted the USA to help, but big parts of the Iraqis dont want the USA to be there. That makes the already difficult situation even more complicated.

WTF? You mean the US has all of Iraq's oil now? Then why the hell am I paying damn near $3 a freaking gallon? Someone please explain it to me! If we went to Iraq to take their oil, then why are gas prices so high in the US? I'm so sick of hearing that crap spew from peoples mouths.

Pls tell me, was Saddam the only bad person in the world? Why was it him, what made him the target if the US? It cant be the mass destruction weapons, cause they had no such kind of weapons. (Ok, the secret service told Bush that Iraq had weapons, but they really dont have found that kind of weapons in Raq so far). Why isnt the USA declaring war to countries who HAVE mass destruction weapons like North Korea? or maybe to Cuba? Isnt it strange that he declares war to Saddams Iraq who was after the sanctions of the UN since the 1990s a weak country, speaking of their military. Was the war declared cause the goverment expected less resistance of the iraqi troops which were abolutely in a bad shape as the war began 2 years ago? The entire Iraq war situation looks suspect to me and for a big part of the european community. Of course a group of persons is saying everything the US government has done is right so far, but this group is a minority.

Thats a fact huh? You been to Iraq? You were there to see what Saddam did to people? You been there now to see all this "suffering" you claim is happening now? Or are you just believing what the Anti-American media is feeding you?

I can tell you, the german media is known for its high quality and its independance. And i have friends coming from different nations. One of them is an Iraqi. He is in Germany to study economy and his family is in Iraq. He has regularly contact to them and sometimes we speak about Iraq. He was told by his family that the situation right now is very close to anarchy and civil war. The situation is much more worse than in Saddam times. Of course nobody expected to have the new Iraq in a very short period of time, but what worries me and Europe is the fact that the fights, the toll of death every day and the brutality is raising day by day. It looks like the situation is getting out of control.

I'm sure that the US Government knew damn well what would happen after the war, its the people who didn't know. And I am sure the US Government knows exactly what will happen if we pull out, its the people who don't know.

And iam 100% sure they didnt knew what would happen after the war. But why AFTER the war, the country is STILL IN WAR for over 3 years now. The US government declared the USA as the winner, but the Iraqi guerilla and supporters are still active and operating. Even more active than ever in these days. Iam just one of million persons in Europe who thinks that the USA have incredibly underestimated the war and the resistance in Iraq and dont know what to do really to stop the war. The support for the USA is decreasing slowly.

What irritates me is that all these Anti-War/Anti-American hippys and foreigners want to preach about all the suffering and blah blah. They don't ever mention the fact that the US went and still is going to extreme lengths and measures to protect the civilians and civilian structures and property in Iraq, [b]even though to do so puts US troops in more danger

Who gives the USA the right to chance the world like they want? Dont have the other nations in the world the right to exist? Why arent the USA going after other "bad nations" too and help to make them better. Like the poor Cuba nation or the more dangerous North Korea, which even has very likely atomic weapons? Was Iraq an easy to defeat country after the sanctions from the 1990s?

Now if I were over there that would piss me off, damn it pisses me off and I'm not over there. The fact that those troops are fighting a war with rules and tactics that have never been used before, that put their lives at more of a risk, simply to minimize damage. And then to hear people back home disagreeing with what they are spilling their blood for!

Iam dont wanted to offend or insult anybody or anything with my posts. It is just the opinion of a guy who thinks that some things really werent handled as they should be. A big mayority of the community in Europe thiks the same about the Iraq conflict. Going directly for a war was a heavy mistake by the US government.
Iam not blaming not the Army for the situation right now, they are just doing there jobs. I think that the US governmenrt did some heavy mistakes. Ruling out diplomacy from the start wasnt a good idea. In what kind of world are we living when war is the only solution? Isnt the ages of war over yet?